Lding Is Not Supernatural, There Are No Shadow Men. Its Jus

No, I have never experienced anything "spiritual"... This is just a dream we can control, there is nothing to suggest that this is some sort of spirit world, or connection to another dimension.There is nothing to support the idea that this is some "different world" we are transported to, or have anything to do with our "souls" or spirit folk, or shadow men, or anything like that.the evidence suggests what my OP said, that's it. And no, I have never experienced anything remotely spiritual in a LD, that's because ITS JUST A DREAM. One that I can control and live in, due to my mind making the world around me. More so then the other world my mind makes, that we are both in now, that we share.

>As far as I'm concerned lucid dreaming is one of the biggest challenges to modern consciousness theory and there is no way you can call this straight scienceThis does not make it "supernatural"

Thank you, this is exactly right. We know so little about the function/nature/purpose of dreaming, anyone really up on the current science of dreaming would be remiss to make any conclusive statements at all.

But one thing we know, is that there is no evidence that shadow men are real, or that this is some magic world that lucid dreams take you do. All evidence points to shadow men just being a hallucination, and lucid dreams are just that, dreams.

Right.... When I was a child, and would enter SP, I thought I had a mental issue or something.As I got older, I grew more informed of the sleeping process, and began to guess SP was a natural thing that happened. Research showed me that the body does instead freeze itself when it sleeps, that same resource mentioned lucid dreaming, and thus I researched that, using direct testing as well as reading others input.

ha... nice troll dude.

Meh, you just sound bitter.If you don't care about the truth, by all means keep believing in hippi-pseudo crap.

That's would be you, I would assert.

Agreed, people who believe in extra-normal things, such as creatures that visit us from other dimensions, usually cant handle someone pointing out that there is no evidence of that, and all evidence suggests otherwise,

Sure... right.... Hey, a shadow man just appeared to tell me he is not real... Okay... Now we have both sides of the coin.So, everything I said was true, a shadow man just told me. Thus we now have the esoteric point of view and the exoteric.That's it.

Fools always get bitter when someone points out how these delusional fantasy of a spirit world has no evidence.You are no different then one of these morons from the time of ancient Greece that believe in the sun god or the god of the hunt.Move along moron, you embarrassed yourself enough for 1 day.

You are the idiot, and very bitter.

If that was the case, everything is magic.

Neurology is a science of biology, and that is a science of chemistry.Pleb.

Wow

And how does that prove anything? How exactly does seeing neurons firing in our brain prove anything about why we dream or what they mean?

Erioth gave the appropriate answer for this. It might not be simple as monster in the closet but a fear more complicated, and also, it's not like not knowing there are no shadow figures and evil supernatural things, you know they don't exist but some people get a little bit scared when they're in the dark and they can't help it. It might be something from childhood or from a horrible event or something. A person can get scared of anything and we might not know the reason, that's why I'm saying we should have respect. And like I said, changing something in your subconsciousness is not easy.

To get so dogmatically hung up on the "science" of a subjective personal experience, teetering on the absolute fringe of experience, is to miss the point of the experience to begin with. The strict scientism seen in this sub wrongfully and dismissively undercuts the deeply personal, subjective, and frankly bizarre experience of dreaming and waking. As Indian sage Ramana Maharshi said: "The dream is short and life is long; *besides that there is no difference*. **They are both products of the same Mind.**" I mean, the first exercise that many are taught in lucid dreaming is to notice the dream-like qualities of waking and the life-like qualities of the dream. This experience teeters on the very fringes of human experience, in a world where science cannot definitively measure things, and while discussion of neuro-physical mechanics serve a purpose, they do not definitively and decisively close the book on subjective experience.This makes me think of a passage from [the introduction to Robert Anton Wilson's book "The Cosmic Trigger"](http://rawilson.com/trigger1.html):>My attitude is identical to that of Dr. Gribbin and the majority of physicists today, and is known in physics as "the Copenhagen Interpretation," because it was formulated in Copenhagen by Dr. Niels Bohr and his co-workers c. 1926-28. The Copenhagen Interpretation is sometimes called "model agnosticism" and holds that any grid we use to organize our experience of the world is a model of the world and should not be confused with the world itself. Alfred Korzybski, the semanticist, tried to popularize this outside physics with the slogan, "The map is not the territory." Alan Watts, a talented exegete of Oriental philosophy, restated it more vividly as "The menu is not the meal.">Belief in the traditional sense, or certitude, or dogma, amounts to the grandiose delusion, "My current model" -- or grid, or map, or reality-tunnel -- "contains the whole universe and will never need to be revised." In terms of the history of science and knowledge in general, this appears absurd and arrogant to me, and I am perpetually astonished that so many people still manage to live with such a medieval attitude.> ....>Most philosophers have known, at least since around 500 B.C., that the world perceived by our senses is not "the real world" but a construct we create -- our own private work of art. Modern science began with Galileo's demonstration that color is not "in" objects but "in" the interaction of our senses with objects. Despite this philosophic and scientific knowledge of neurological relativity, which has been more clearly demonstrated with each major advance in instrumentation, we still, due to language, think that behind the flowing, meandering, inter-acting, evolving universe created by perception is one solid monolithic "reality" hard and crisply outlined as an iron bar.>Quantum physics has undermined that Platonic iron-bar "reality" by showing that it makes more sense scientifically to talk only of the inter-actions we actually experience (our operations in the laboratory) ; and perception psychology has undermined the Platonic "reality" by showing that assuming it exists leads to hopeless contradictions in explaining how we actually perceive that a hippopotamus is not a symphony orchestra.>The only "realities" (plural) that we actually experience and can talk meaningfully about are perceived realities, experienced realities, existential realities -- realities involving ourselves as editors -- and they are all relative to the observer, fluctuating, evolving, capable of being magnified and enriched, moving from low resolution to hi-fi, and do not fit together like the pieces of a jig-saw into one single Reality with a capital R. Rather, they cast illumination upon one another by contrast, like the paintings in a large museum, or the different symphonic styles of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Mahler.>Alan Watts may have said it best of all: "The universe is a giant Rorschach ink-blot." Science finds one meaning in it in the 18th Century, another in the 19th, a third in the 20th; each artist finds unique meanings on other levels of abstraction; and each man and woman finds different meanings at different hours of the day, depending on the internal and external environments.

You aren't really helping the Lucid dreaming community by telling people how it is and actually thinking your 100% correct... You think with the wrong side of your brain.... go and meditate and let us know when you find that other part of your brain

So I'm guessing you're around 17, right?

>Like it or not, you have no proof that there is anything spiritual, unless your definition of 'spiritual' is something other than the way common people use it.And in that exact same vein, you cannot prove there isn't any kind of spiritual experience. In the same way that we can't prove that something is spiritual, you can't prove it's not. Spirituality is relative. So you can't really use spirituality in a logical conversation about LD, sure. But, you can't say, definitively, that it isn't possible. That's just close-minded.

I'm here to read about lucid dreaming. Not atheistic rants.If I would enjoy debating an atheist, I would head over to /r/DebateAnAtheist. Is it that boring over there that you try to discuss atheism here? In all honesty, I don't enjoy it that much. Especially not the missionary kind.From a psychological point of view, this seems to be more about basking in the light of a self-perceived intellectual superiority than anything else. Expect what you want, and find laughable what you want. Bluntly put, I couldn't care less.

> When you start trying to objectively explain spiritual/religious beliefs, they quickly break down.The issue lies in the fact that there is no such thing as "objective" reality. There are innumerable subjective realities; each created and maintained by the panoply of living things. Consensus reality is an illusion that has been known to philosophy since the Ancient Greeks and only reinforced by modern physics. As Einstein himself stated: "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."From Robert Anton Wilson's "Cosmic Trigger":>"Reality" is a word in the English language which happens to be (a) a noun and (b) singular. Thinking in the English language (and in cognate Indo-European languages) therefore subliminally programs us to conceptualize "reality" as one block-like entity, sort of like a huge New York skyscraper, in which every part is just another "room" within the same building. This linguistic program is so pervasive that most people cannot "think" outside it at all, and when one tries to offer a different perspective they imagine one is talking gibberish.>The notion that "reality" is a noun, a solid thing like a brick or a baseball bat, derives from the evolutionary fact that our nervous systems normally organize the dance of energy into such block-like "things," probably as instant bio-survival cues. Such "things," however, dissolve back into energy dances -- processes or verbs -- when the nervous system is synergized with certain drugs or transmuted by yogic or shamanic exercises or aided by scientific instruments. In both mysticism and physics, there is general agreement that "things" are constructed by our nervous systems and that "realities" (plural) are better described as systems or bundles of energy functions.>So much for "reality" as a noun. The notion that "reality" is singular, like a hermetically sealed jar, does not jibe with current scientific findings which, in this century, suggest that "reality" may better be considered as flowing and meandering, like a river, or interacting, like a dance or evolving, like life itself.

Maybe shadow people are 2nd Dimensional beings connecting to the 3rd dimension in a sense how we can connect to the 4th dimension via meditation/astral projection/lucid dreaming...

U have alot to learn. Sorry vant waste time talkin u to anymore

You keep saying things that are not physical arent real. You can say that all u want but i know you dont really believe it because ur a person just like us..u are affected by physical things as well as imagined things. I dont nee

This is the proper multiparadigmatic approach :)

Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic! Woo!

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Im not saying this or that is really happening its a mystery. But your claiming that there is nothing behind it for certain when you have no evidence of that. We know the scientific processes behind but dont truly understand whats happening. Thats like saying we know what consciousness is because because theirs certain signals going off in the brain and a reaction occurs. Im not saying i believe in one thing or the other, im just saying you cant say this is whats happening i have all the answers because that extremely ignorant. Step off your high horse.